Healing potions - to cooldown, or not to cooldown

[krayon]

While some people were testing in the fighting arena, I applied cooldown to the healing potions on the fly.  Cooldown has not been decided for ANY items in the game as yet, but when I did this, it sparked the debate about cooldown and PvP.  An excerpt:

bigkav: krayon added cooldowns flee
bigkav: xD
Zorro: cooldown xD
MrGray: lol cd ftw
bigkav: nooo >.<
MrGray: it is too low already
bigkav: cooldown ftl ;s
bigkav: rofl 6th today
...
Krayon: I pressed the cooldown button didn't I
Krayon:
bigkav: yes >.<
...
Krayon: I never intended them not to have it... then again, i never intended them TO have it either
bigkav: >.<
SenZon: damn lol
bigkav: make cooldown lower plx;P
SenZon: i love cooldown xD
bigkav: its like main serv cooldown
SenZon: no its perfect ;p
Krayon: atm it's 5, 10 and 20 respectively
Krayon: and they give 40, 100 and 200 health respectively.
Krayon: hmmm
bigkav: its rly hard to fight..
DonPedro: look how cooldown effect PK
...
SenZon: lol whining already ?
...
Krayon: Is cooldown necessary for healing potions etc?
bigkav: no
SenZon: hmm
...
bigkav: whenb ppl run out of $ they cant buy more
SenZon: its good like right now
...
Krayon: Incidently this isn't final, i just punched in some values for it to see
bigkav: cooldowns atm is to big
Krayon: NOTHING is final
SenZon: i like lol donp got owned
bigkav:
bigkav: 5 sec cooldown atm on small ones
bigkav: 20 sec cooldown on 200 hp ones.. :/
SenZon: i find it not bad
bigkav: only coz u pwn all;p
SenZon: can you make it like first click no cooldown
SenZon: 2nd click 5sec
SenZon: 3rd 10 secs
SenZon: etc
SenZon: brb
bigkav: cooldowns r fail ;x
bigkav: emu limits fight times
bigkav: so no need for them
grollach: brb
Krayon: hmmm that may be true bigkav.
bigkav: 300 emu = 100 GHP
Krayon: SenZon: In theory, what you suggest would be doable.
bigkav: although spending his pps in emu adding atribs makes him wekare
bigkav: weaker**
bigkav: i dont like to brag but i know alot about pk
bigkav: i pked 10 hours a day for 2 weeks once ;P
bigkav: (cost about 1.5m gcs ) yes i bought gc with $
[Krayon @ 1]: (Taking it to channel) See, stuff like that ... you EL PK players would know more than I about if this is needed or not.
[Krayon @ 1]: Cooldown may be necessary for potions of healing, maybe not.  I have no idea so I would ask you (and will do on the forums).
bigkav: it is cheaper here to pk with GHP's and easier to get money as opposed to main el, that it is much more expenisve with breaks+attrib pots etc acc/eva
[SenZon @ 1]: idk the awnser but cooldown sucks .. with out cooldown would be to easy
[bigkav @ 1]: emu limits fight times
[MrGray @ 1]: no cd is must
[Krayon @ 1]: I don't necessarily like the idea of cooldown as a roleplay aspect so much, except maybe a small one (you need to swallow after all)
[MrGray @ 1]: without cd no 1v1 fight will end
[bigkav @ 1]: trust me no cooldown = mass more ppl for server
[MrGray @ 1]: well i have a strong reason to disagree
[MrGray @ 1]: it is killing tougness/reactin
[MrGray @ 1]: why would ppl want to get it?if you can drink as much as u want?
[bigkav @ 1]: http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elscreen015hf3.jpg
[MrGray @ 1]: ppl can survive with only will
[bigkav @ 1]: i have to constantly click him
[bigkav @ 1]: so i can keep him in ring

NOTE: Ellipses (...) added to signify removal of non-topic text.  Emoticons also removed from some of my text so I don't look so much like a tool or MSN chat girly annoying shit.

While I know it's early days and it's probably difficult to make a choice given that not everything has been defined, but I would like to hear others opinions.

[krayon]

SenZon does bring up another WAY to do cooldown which I would fully like to encourage also:

SenZon: can you make it like first click no cooldown
SenZon: 2nd click 5sec
SenZon: 3rd 10 secs
SenZon: etc

[MrGray]

We should have them otherwise why peapole should care about taking less damage(toughness and reaction)?If we wont have CD PKers would get all Will carry tones of pots and hit godly with some instinct added.Edit:godly and accurately

[SenZon]

well isnt magic going to be placed in soon ?
if so leave cooldown 10-20secs on potions so ppl will use ''Restore'' as well

[LightLan]

in general I want cooldown on stuff like healing, but not too high

[kavvie]

ATM ur 1,2,3 Sec cooldowns r awsome just perfect, (1 sec for minor, 2 for normal, 3 for greater) if it was higher it would be how to say umm.. hmm to much for pk, if u fighting someone extremely stronger then you u need ur cooldowns less then more and vise versa, also spells... for pure fighter that is not an option right? if pure fight u use all pp's in human, none in magic for spells... so more feedback plx )

-bigk

[krayon]

well isnt magic going to be placed in soon ?
if so leave cooldown 10-20secs on potions so ppl will use ''Restore'' as well

Magic will be put in yes, but as to if healing will be a spell, and if it'll be castable by people on Tier 1 of Magic only, and if it'll do enough to be worthwhile is unknown.

I appreciate that this makes it difficult to say.  I would therefore assume that if magic has heal and it's castable by Tier 1 and it's good enough (equiv to potions) then you are saying you are for cooldown.

EDIT: formatting only.

[Little]

I haven't played on this server so I know nothing about how fighting works here. So my opinion is only general. You don't want fighting to work as it does on the PK-server, no cd and ppl have like 300hp with col = you can't die. Fights lasts until ppl run out of ess to heal themself or gets bored and dis.

Before the server crash in EL I think pk worked great there without cd. Ppl had 70hp iirc and serp or tit long was the best weap and ppl used br to heal themself. So if one wants to avoid cd one must be able to do enough damage (compared to how much and fast you can heal) to each otherwise cd is imho needed.

Imho if one can avoid cd its a better solution.

/Little(star)

[Korrode]

i dont know why this thread even exists

There'll be cooldown on healing potions.

Without cooldown:

• It's too hard for anyone to ever die
• Some attributes will become underpowered, some overpowered
• PK will be expensive due to the shredding through resources
• ...a plethora of other reasons.

EDIT:

Before the server crash in EL I think pk worked great there without cd. Ppl had 70hp

True enough, and we could set Matter to give 5 health instead of 20 and i could make adjustments to some attributes weight and possibly to equipment stats... but i think doing all that would produce a less enjoyable game.
EMU and luck would still become too bigger players in the outcome of PK fights.

[Jizzy]

plethora

One of my fav words LOL 

[Ena]

Speaking of Magic and other stuff...
are you planning on implementing the whole astrology business?

I kind of liked EL pre-astro, as restore; I could restore fully.

Cooldown I don't mind though, but with an adjusment to some things, like fruit perhaps :p

[trollson]

Cooldown

I think there are better ways to implement the same effect other than blocking a players actions for a period.  For example, knocking a point of some associated attribute or skill for each attempt could be a general game mechanic, fatigue etc.

See other thread (Misc (I)).

Astrology:

Speaking of Magic and other stuff...
are you planning on implementing the whole astrology business?

I helped Entropy with some functions for his astrology thing, but I was very disappointed with how he used it.

The original requirement was that it should be "realistic", that is, build a planetary system and determine celestial positions from that.  This I did, constrained to circular orbits in a flat plane at his request, though I could do full Keplerian orbits...).

First problem, he threw out the astronomy/astrology already written up for the game by Roja.

Second, despite wanting a "realistic" model, which could be used for a space-faring game later, Entropy didn't like the time it took for events to change, so insisted on speeding up the universe to match his expectations.  ...that will confuse the spacefarers...

Given all that, it would have been better just to have a pseudo-random event generator for astrological events.

However, what really bugged me was the way it was then used in-game.

There is no "game" with EL's Astrology, it is just another gold sink.  Players' cannot interact with astrology.

All characters are affected by the astrology effects by default; they either have to spend gold to permanently bypass the effect (pre-Astrology state), or spend time/effort/money to determine how it currently affects them.  In the latter case it just makes them either wait or rush some actions.

What I was expecting from Astrology was something far more interesting.

Astrological events would be predictable, by skill, cost, knowledge, or luck.  Events could/would tie to places, types, tasks, times.

For example, you predict that in 3 days in the 3rd hour a conjunction of two bodies will occur over a location.  The properties of the two bodies combine to give an effect, centred on that place and time (and diminishing with distance).  This affects certain tasks in a powerful way -- say, the chance to create an exotic item not normally obtainable.

This way, astrology is something that you can play, rather than are just subject to.

[Jizzy]

Personally i would rather have a cooldown than have an attribute cut. even if its just for a short time.

but i really like the astrology stuff. nice work.

[krayon]

Speaking of Magic and other stuff...
are you planning on implementing the whole astrology business?

I've added my reply to the FAQ here:
  http://qelserv.quadronyx.org/forums/index.php?topic=25.0

[Korrode]

Cooldown

I think there are better ways to implement the same effect other than blocking a players actions for a period.  For example, knocking a point of some associated attribute or skill for each attempt could be a general game mechanic, fatigue etc.

See other thread (Misc (I)).

We're always considering different (and in our opinion, better) ways for the game to operate, and never implementing something the same as it's done in EL without considering if it's the 'best' way....

That said, one key element from EL that i want to maintain is the 'feel' of the PvP combat. There's problems with many different aspect of EL that affect PK, but the act itself is great, and is why EL has many long term and passionate PK'ers.

I do worry about deviating too far from that system (even the fact the ol' MD'ing ones own summons tactic wont be an option for most or all PvP combatants concerns me a little), so to substitute cooldown for some other system, i'd need in-depth details about any alternative, and most likely no one would be able to come up with a detailed alternative until the game has taken a lot more shape than it's current state... of course, then there'd be the problem that much of the game may be designed around cooldown and it'd be hard to substitute it with anything else...

I guess in the end i'm saying that i'm happy with a wait period (i.e. cooldown) being used, the fact a different period can and will be used for different kind of items also provides a good way to adjust for game balance.

My view on this is mainly in relation to PvP combat, in regards to anything not related to that (like cooldown on food, etc), i'm certainly open to any alternatives.

Astrology:

...

Astrological events would be predictable, by skill, cost, knowledge, or luck.  Events could/would tie to places, types, tasks, times.

For example, you predict that in 3 days in the 3rd hour a conjunction of two bodies will occur over a location.  The properties of the two bodies combine to give an effect, centred on that place and time (and diminishing with distance).  This affects certain tasks in a powerful way -- say, the chance to create an exotic item not normally obtainable.

This way, astrology is something that you can play, rather than are just subject to.

Sounds interesting...

The key thing i hate about astrology is the fact it discourages people from doing certain tasks at certain times. Some people cannot play games very often, some people only enjoy very few tasks/activities, i don't want to force these people to suffer through "bad astro" because they cant be on when it's "good" or because they don't like doing other stuff.

I'd be interested to hear about any 'astrology' system that doesn't have this issue.

Also Trollson, sorry i haven't given feedback on your other posts as yet... they touch on some in-depth stuff and bring up some new ideas and questions for Krayon and myself to go over... thank you for all the input though, and we will look to further discuss much of it soon