Hi Korrode,
thanks for your reply, I'm going to answer only where we disagree
Things that EL does (at least partly) wrong:
- not really multi-racial: misses race-specific attributes and skills that would add depth to the game
I disagree, i would hate to be in some way limited simply due to my char's appearance.
First of all, this is how races are handled in EL: a small factual advantage (no fighting books for play for pay 2 play races), then it's just about the
looks, isn't it shallow and a lost opportunity?
Second point: what Deodand said
i.e., it's all about making the different races more real, interesting, connected to the global history of the fictional world. Which means "evaluating" each single race, writing an history about them, defining what they could be good and less good at. Which means it'd be not about "limiting" races, but adding some abilities (more perception in the case of the dwarf, to keep to his example) and defining little bonus/maluses in the initial stats: a dwarf could be less good at magic than an elf, at the beginning, but you wouldn't be barred to create a dwarf-mage character because the difference would be small, and it might be interesting because there wouldn't be as many as elf mages. So the net result would be
not a limited character, but a more interesting, complex and able one.
- build system a little complex (attributes, cross-attributes, skill levels, nexuses)
I disagee with you here. I very much enjoy that EL's char building system is more complex than 'traditional' RPG styles.
It's just a matter to agree on meaning of words here. "Powerful" and "flexible" are good, "complex" might be a consequence of the first two, "unnecessarily complex" is definitely bad. The EL system verges on the "unnecessarily complex" IMHO, and that's bad, I heard even experienced players talking about the "arcane of PPs distribution": if QEL could trim a little fat here and there that would be great.
Also, you should try to keep some perspective IMHO: if you like a complex build system, others might not, which is why I asked if you guys were thinking of a mainly/only for fighter RPG. A very effective way to achieve great flexibility and variability without making the basic system too complex is to introduce armor and weapons abilities, as I suggested elsewhere, so that
only fighters are involved in this specific character configuration; the end result could be even more complex than the current EL build system.
- character community is somewhat disconnected with the game developers
Game developers who actually play the game with a normal account would be pr0 eh?
Indeed
In spite of its problems, EL mostly works and has gathered quite a vibrant community of players.
A solid community perhaps, but the population size has been stagnant for years.
... and, according to radu's blog, about 10-15% of players quit after he introduced harvesting events, at least for the time being.
To do something better is a difficult task and one that could be accomplished only in small steps.
Yep, we're aware this will be no short nor easy task... and we'll need much help
Unfortunately I can help with this "theoretical" stuff, but I'm not a programmer. Also, what's the status of the EL graphics? are they restricted by the distribution license?
I agree, i want the bigger storyline to have much more impact on the game world, and ya that may be an ok way to have racial choice mean something.
Yep, that was the idea.
- attributes: these are a crucial part of the game mechanism, I see that QEL moves stuff here and there but I can't always understand to what purpose, f.i. why is Toughness a cross-attribute of Coordination? or: how is Will related to Dexterity? or Rationality to Instinct?
For the moment we're limited by the names in the EL client (as that's
currently what we're using, un-patched).
I agree some of the ways the attributes are linked doesn't quite make RL/RPG sense, and they would be name different if we could... but that said, the attribute system is designed very much for making balanced and varied char builds across all 4 combatant orientations.
Ok, I suspected something like that about the attribute names. Instead of having the char builds "hard-wired" through attributes (only), though, why not let them emerge thanks to abilities? So that, for instance, two handed + unarmed combat + some fancy weapon skill basically means that I'm a sort of gladiator, and so on.
Another idea: how about having the character defining her/his physical build at the character creation time, then leaving it mostly untouched with a modest growth (unless there are "special" events)? I find it very unrealistic that you can double or more your strength thanks to PPs, the attribute cap should be very much lower than in EL so that 90% of the character build is defined by his choices and growth in abilities.
What I'd do: let's consider well our starting point (EL) and see how well it works. Do we have keep all of them? Exactly as they are? I'd start by dividing PHYSICAL attributes from MENTAL ones, also keeping the cross-attributes separate: what's got mana to do with vitality? or perception with reasoning? I would take some time to think hard about this basic stuff.
I see you're a fan of a more traditional RPG attribute system
...We'll have to just agree to disagree, as i find the
'1attrib effects 3cross-attribs' system very appealing, and much more rewarding of considered and thought our attribute build plans/strategies, and offering more variety for 'build types'. I'd even hope to have non-combatants ending up being able to make different, balanced and useful 'build types'.
See above: I don't want you to give up on the current system, but to integrate it with abilities.
- combat experience: here I really disagree, linking XP to the amount of damage (degree of success for spells) is plainly wrong IMHO; again, let's look at EL, the XP progressing system works well, with only a notable exception (ranging, again IMHO): why change it? What about different weapons dealing different damages? and is it fair that someone gets more XP simply because he has more might? Note that this system would make summoning more hard to level than it already is.
Well if a fighter wants max attack exp and to make a powerful offensive build, using Might and/or Dexterity will be the way to go (dex is an option because can then use higher damage, lower accuracy weapon to the same effect), although there's a lot more to it, the person needs to consider if they'll last long enough for their big offensive power to do the job, etc.
I dont see anything wrong with this, we just need to ensure that there's equal benefits for other types of builds.
Here we really agree to disagree I'm afraid
It really does sound weird and also impractical to me: what about potions or weapons increasing your strength/damage, you'd be getting more xp? if yes, that really seems unfair, I thought you were against people prevailing just because of better equipment; if not, it introduces an unnecessary complexity because you'd have to subtract the bonus from total damage, etc.
I think it makes perfect sense to give more attack exp when you deal more damage, more magic exp when your spell has greater effect. Consider that perhaps "attack" doesn't only encompass your ability to hit, but can be a reflection of your ability to dispatch opponents. The damage done is a key part of what the attack skill is used for.
True, but even in real life you
first have to hit someone/something before dealing damage, that's what the skill is about.
All that aside, one of the key reasons offensive combat exp, across the 4 skills, is gained this way is to keep training 'epic' (as kav would say
)... training is this boring, mundane thing in EL... i cripple my character when i train, fighting a creature that cant hit me well at all and i do minimum damage when i hit him... i like the strategy one can use in EL to get the most out of EL's system, but really i think most people would prefer if training had more of a thrill to it. With exp based on damage/effect, when training for exp in those offensive skills you go out with your best sword, or strongest spells, or meanest summoned beasts and obliterate your opponents with all the power you've amassed in the development of your character.
It just sounds so much more fun to me than the dry task that is training in EL.
Good point, but I think that training is actually a very boring task in EL not because of the XP attribution system, but because a) the amounts of XP you have to gather are outrageous b) you are therefore forced to train on the same creature for a looooong time c) you also are forced to only one specific creature for a long time because there are holes in the progression, so that you are already too strong for your current target but too weak for the next one d) you have to argue with people to find free spawns. Make training faster, richer, redundant with creatures suitable with your current level (so that you can choose!), with lots of spawns, and the problem is fixed.
Also consider that allowing people to easily level offensive power, but making it harder to level defensive power, makes for really intense PK... less long, drawn out fights, more fast paced slaughter.
You can achieve the same results with a careful balancing in weapons vs armors, same with abilities.
I'd like to see the following things, sorely missing in EL:
- racial bonus/malus on starting attributes (better start from a little more than the EL standard 4)
- racial abilities
Again i dont really like the idea that just because i prefer to look a certain way, i get disadvantages in some skills i may want to pursue.
Who says i cant be a hat making Orchan, or a magic Dwarf
See above: add more advantages than disadvantages, and make the disadvantages not too bad.
- fighting skills: assuming that you a) get rid of nexuses b) gain >= xp than in EL, you could spend those PPs in fighting skills like Sword, Shield, etc., all combining in improving your def/att abilities
Well, those nexuses already do dictate equipment and item usage for the orientations... as i said earlier, the Nexus system is something i would be willing to re-visit, and as far as i'm concerned it's
never too late to go back and change things... i'd hope to get the design right first time, but i've got no problem with going back and re-doing work if it turns out we need to.
Two notes: yep, please consider nexuses carefully, and yep again, don't be afraid to keep the beta tag and change things as needed.
- greatly improved magic system, also including scrolls and runes (ready to use spells for non magic users, like summoning stones are for non summoners)
Perhaps... atm though i'm leaning towards disagreeing.
I never really liked that summoning became something everyone could do... kinda cheats the summoners in my mind... same would apply to magic.
Hehe, you're right that I'm grounded in traditional RPG games. THe solution is simple, make stones and runes have a prerequisite to be used: in D&D a thief could use a magic spell, but only if he had intelligence high enough to do that. Same could apply to QEL (and also to EL ...).
- make fight training a little more self sustaining
Combatants will never have to do anything other than combat if they don't want to (same applies in reverse for non-combat oriented people). I said earlier that this game will not be a "combat version" of EL, but that doesn't mean we're not going to be making PvP/PK'ing a much easier thing for people to do, with less 'effort' needed to gain the resources to compete. Still to this day no one has ever been able to give me actual good reason why gc shouldn't be simply thrown at combatants. Considering QEL wont have stuff like pickpoint buying, most of these combatants will burn that gc on resources for PvE or PvP, hopefully keeping the artisan/producers product throughput very high.
I guess reset will be available?
Thanks for all your input and ideas Reh, you've got me thinking about some changes that may be needed to balance the Mage too ^^
I can see you're a fan of many of the aspects from traditional RPG's... i am too with a lot of things, but not with some others ;p ...we'll no doubt re-visit many of the points/suggestions you've made in the future, in more detail.
You're welcome
if I can help, will be glad to.
Rehdon
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